Post by E on Apr 24, 2009 0:30:21 GMT -5
Original post by Ms Ariel:
So, as most of you know I've been in a mentor-ship with Qira the last few months, and while things are going slow, I do think I've made some process. I'm certainly thinking of things a lot more now.
One thing I've been thinking of recently, which I've presented to her already, is in learning to know yourself.
The question I had is thus: Do you need to, or is it better to (depending on how you want to word it) know yourself BEFORE searching for a connection to the Divine, or having a relationship with Divine. Do They want you to know you before they get to know you?; OR does having that connection or relationship help you to know yourself, and do They help you learn about yourself?
Here is Qira's response to my question:
I think that process is everything. I learn who I am by bumping up against other people and harmonizing, and not-harmonizing with them. IT's all about relationship. And the Divine is always in the process of helping you know yourself, and learning to know yourself is also the first step towards knowing the Divine.
Darkk:
I would say that self-knowledge is perhaps the most important thing one should possess before undertaking any endeavor... especially those concerning contrast between yourself and the higher orders of being (no matter what form those orders might take). Without a knowledge of the self, a true portrayal of your own Selfdom, everything you take in is warped... a distortion of an echo, you might say. If you experience the Divine through an unrealized Selfdom, your experience will be woefully incomplete... and the potential to misunderstand or misinterpret is greatly increased.
- Darkk
Blackrose:
A quickie...
I agree that knowing yourself is a crucial first step. From my own experience, however singular that might be, it wasn't until I truly knew myself on some level... not until I started "being" and stopped "reacting"... that I was truly able to experience and understand anything...
It was, for me, a long and hard process to get to the point of knowing who I was beyond indoctrination and social conventions and feelings of what I should be... a lot of psychological and personality tests and other such...
As for this in relation to knowing the Divine... I found that once you know yourself, your true Self and the essences which comprise who and what you are, then the issue of "finding your patron" becomes one of simple recognition - for your patrons are those which resonate the strongest with your natural essences...
Part of this is predicated on my notion of deity as being embodiements of forces and/or essences... One essence will not really help you understand parts of yourself which are unrelated to it, except, perhaps, to the extent that you know "it's not X"
As for Divinity in the "divine spark" sense or in the overarching sense of the Totality, I tend to view It as rather more removed from human understanding or awareness... It helps with an overall sense of connection, or with the paradox of being an individual and yet united to everything else... but It doesn't really deal with the specifics of the individual...
Lastly, as for relationships... for me part of knowing who I am is to get past who I am in relationships into who I would be were there no compromises and no consequences. Of course we are social creatures and so there is always an element of this - but the core of Selfdom, the notions of knowing thyself, and actualizing has always, to me, been about individuality...
It's who and what I am without convention and constraints... it's what I believe beyond what I've been taught to believe, but on a deeper level... It was about stripping away the detritous of persona and expectations and obligations... and just get to the core essences of "me"...
That, for me - as I said - was the hardest part... and once I managed that, a lot of the rest - my understandings of Divinity, my gods, my place - sort of just started falling into place...
That said - during the process of Self discovery I was also involved in a lot of reading about theologies and philosophies, looking for what clicked, exploring it - and using those notions to delve deeper into my own understandings... so a lot of the foundation for what clicked was already in place from this initial legwork...
Matt:
I don't think those are necessarily two different approaches Ms.A. I think accomplishing one is almost ipso facto accomplishing the other.
Almost. These things are usually beautifully complicated in their simplicity.
Blessings,
Matt
Ms Ariel:
blackrose wrote:
QUOTE:
A quickie...
I agree that knowing yourself is a crucial first step. From my own experience, however singular that might be, it wasn't until I truly knew myself on some level... not until I started "being" and stopped "reacting"... that I was truly able to experience and understand anything...
I'm not sure I understand this...Aren't we usual a reactionary species? Can you explain a bit more the difference between "being" and "reacting", please?
Matt wrote:
QUOTE:
I don't think those are necessarily two different approaches Ms.A. I think accomplishing one is almost ipso facto accomplishing the other.
Almost. These things are usually beautifully complicated in their simplicity.
So if I understand what you're saying, that by searching for the Divine, I'll find what I truly believe in and what resonates with me?
blackrose wrote:
QUOTE:
Lastly, as for relationships... for me part of knowing who I am is to get past who I am in relationships into who I would be were there no compromises and no consequences. Of course we are social creatures and so there is always an element of this - but the core of Selfdom, the notions of knowing thyself, and actualizing has always, to me, been about individuality...
While I think I see and understand what you're saying her, I've always put so much stock on my relationships and that they are essentially what has defined me throughout my life. While this sounds odd, and without getting into a ton of details here, my relationship with my parents has always been a big factor for me, because without them, who know where I'd be or if I'd even be alive. I will clarify just bit for those who don't know, I'm adopted, so that statement does hold a lot of meaning to me.
Guess I have a ton more thinking.. I'm loving the comments and feedback, please keep them coming.
Blackrose:
MsAriel wrote:
QUOTE:
I'm not sure I understand this...Aren't we usual a reactionary species? Can you explain a bit more the difference between "being" and "reacting", please?
Yes, we usually are a reactionary species... mostly not prone to analysis and introspection. Therein lies part of the problem
I'm not sure how to explain it, so I'll try with an example...
When I was first disillusioned with Christianity I was very angry... angry at, well, a lot of things... angry at my indoctrination, angry at myself... angry at God...
Because, for me, losing my faith was a very traumatic experience... coupled with other experienced which I don't wish to divulge... I felt rather lost... I didn't know who I was anymore, because my belief was a large part of who I thought I was...
In the following years when I tried to explore my Self and my beliefs I had a lot of this anger still... and this kept me in place. I couldn't move forward because I couldn't let go of the past... I needed to deal with those issues, strip myself down to the core, and work my way back up...
In other words, I had to stop reacting to things based on my past and my experiences and start understanding them in a different way...
This is just one example. There's a lot about what we do and say on a regular basis which is a reaction of something. This can't be ignored or dismissed - that's not what I'm suggesting... and it does help us understand ourselves...
But it's not enough just to react... we have to understand why we're doing these things, we we react in the way that we react... and also to understand if this reaction is part of our essential selves, of it it's a remnant of the detritous of the past which needs to be let go...
Yes, the past shaped us... I'm not saying that our experiences don't go into making us who we are. What I am saying is that we are more than that... and that there are times when we need to move past that into a deeper understanding of our "essential selves" - to overuse a phrase
QUOTE:
While I think I see and understand what you're saying her, I've always put so much stock on my relationships and that they are essentially what has defined me throughout my life. While this sounds odd, and without getting into a ton of details here, my relationship with my parents has always been a big factor for me, because without them, who know where I'd be or if I'd even be alive. I will clarify just bit for those who don't know, I'm adopted, so that statement does hold a lot of meaning to me.
I fear I'll be repeating myself from above a touch...
Yes, we are defined, in many ways, by our past, our experiences, and our relationships... but they are still only a part of us...
To me our essential selfdom is sort of like who we are at the core of our being... it's less personality and more... Ugh, I really don't know how to say it...
Let's say that a part of my essential selfdom is a warrior... so it is naturally in me to fight... But what I fight and who I fight and how I fight and why I fight are things to be explored and understood. It's not enough to say "I'm a warrior, so I fight" - We also have to understand if our battles are ones that we truly believe in, or whether we're doing it because that's what we've always done...
I have always had a tumultuous relationship with my parents... and I have rebelled - the nascent individualist in me never being able to 'fit in'... and sometimes I have been the quintessential rebel without a clue - rebelling for the sake of rebelling...
But while it might be in me to rebel - I can't just *react*, I have to understand. Why am I rebelling? Against whom? Against them... or against the pieces of them I see in myself? Do I really want to rebell in X way? Is it really a reflection of who I am, or am I just going off half-cocked?
Some people would, say, rebel against Christianity and just go to the opposite extreme because it's the furthest away that they can get... But are they really being true to themselves, or just being reactionary?
Without consideration and reflection and understanding we could go through our entire lives just reacting off of one thing or the next thing without ever really getting to the heart of the matter...
And even if we say that the rebellion is born not of an essential nature but of experiences - even then the who, how and why need to be considered...
I "rebel" now by being the truest to myself that I can be... instead of blindly flailing against the world...
Again - this is just an example. I tend to use anecdotes a lot... it seems to make more sense that way... But it's just a finger pointing to the moon... it's important to remember that...
**Addendum: I was reading somthing and thinking a bit more about this, and was thinking it's not just specific people that we react to... but also to social expectations and obligations... People often due what they feel is expected of them, instead of what they want to do. Now while I'm not promoting pure hedonism for the sake of it (because that would be reactionary instead of considered ) - what I am saying is that there are some obligations we have... and some times when we need to assert our selves and not do things just because it's what other people want us to do, and so we react to their desires and their demands...
Or, if thinking of it in terms of reacting helps - sometimes you have to react to that little voice inside of yourself that says "Pay attention to me, now"
Darkk wrote:
QUOTE:
Without a knowledge of the self, a true portrayal of your own Selfdom, everything you take in is warped... a distortion of an echo, you might say. If you experience the Divine through an unrealized Selfdom, your experience will be woefully incomplete... and the potential to misunderstand or misinterpret is greatly increased.
I had a thought on this yesterday evening... and I wanted to build on it... with an example... (shock, I know...)
The example that came to mind is meditation...
When meditating on something... specifically when asking for guidance or help in understanding something... it's important to discern between subconscious ramblings and actual messages... (not that the subconscious doesn't give us messages... nor saying that the subconscious messages should be ignored... Only saying that it's important to know the difference - and what comes from within ourselves, and what genuinely comes from without... )
Anyway... the more you know your Self, your understandings and proclivities and thoughts... the easier it is to be able to sift through what your seeing and know what's purely from internal sources...
Likewise, when you know where you end, then it can make it easier to feel where something else begins... to feel energies and presences of things which are not you...
(This isn't even touching on the notion of things "out there" which do not have our best interest at heart and which might seek to influence us with our own reflections.. And this, of course, isn't just speaking of alleged beasties, but of other people, as well... If you know your own mind and your own Self, then it's hardest for people to manipulate or take advantage of you... )
So, as most of you know I've been in a mentor-ship with Qira the last few months, and while things are going slow, I do think I've made some process. I'm certainly thinking of things a lot more now.
One thing I've been thinking of recently, which I've presented to her already, is in learning to know yourself.
The question I had is thus: Do you need to, or is it better to (depending on how you want to word it) know yourself BEFORE searching for a connection to the Divine, or having a relationship with Divine. Do They want you to know you before they get to know you?; OR does having that connection or relationship help you to know yourself, and do They help you learn about yourself?
Here is Qira's response to my question:
I think that process is everything. I learn who I am by bumping up against other people and harmonizing, and not-harmonizing with them. IT's all about relationship. And the Divine is always in the process of helping you know yourself, and learning to know yourself is also the first step towards knowing the Divine.
Darkk:
I would say that self-knowledge is perhaps the most important thing one should possess before undertaking any endeavor... especially those concerning contrast between yourself and the higher orders of being (no matter what form those orders might take). Without a knowledge of the self, a true portrayal of your own Selfdom, everything you take in is warped... a distortion of an echo, you might say. If you experience the Divine through an unrealized Selfdom, your experience will be woefully incomplete... and the potential to misunderstand or misinterpret is greatly increased.
- Darkk
Blackrose:
A quickie...
I agree that knowing yourself is a crucial first step. From my own experience, however singular that might be, it wasn't until I truly knew myself on some level... not until I started "being" and stopped "reacting"... that I was truly able to experience and understand anything...
It was, for me, a long and hard process to get to the point of knowing who I was beyond indoctrination and social conventions and feelings of what I should be... a lot of psychological and personality tests and other such...
As for this in relation to knowing the Divine... I found that once you know yourself, your true Self and the essences which comprise who and what you are, then the issue of "finding your patron" becomes one of simple recognition - for your patrons are those which resonate the strongest with your natural essences...
Part of this is predicated on my notion of deity as being embodiements of forces and/or essences... One essence will not really help you understand parts of yourself which are unrelated to it, except, perhaps, to the extent that you know "it's not X"
As for Divinity in the "divine spark" sense or in the overarching sense of the Totality, I tend to view It as rather more removed from human understanding or awareness... It helps with an overall sense of connection, or with the paradox of being an individual and yet united to everything else... but It doesn't really deal with the specifics of the individual...
Lastly, as for relationships... for me part of knowing who I am is to get past who I am in relationships into who I would be were there no compromises and no consequences. Of course we are social creatures and so there is always an element of this - but the core of Selfdom, the notions of knowing thyself, and actualizing has always, to me, been about individuality...
It's who and what I am without convention and constraints... it's what I believe beyond what I've been taught to believe, but on a deeper level... It was about stripping away the detritous of persona and expectations and obligations... and just get to the core essences of "me"...
That, for me - as I said - was the hardest part... and once I managed that, a lot of the rest - my understandings of Divinity, my gods, my place - sort of just started falling into place...
That said - during the process of Self discovery I was also involved in a lot of reading about theologies and philosophies, looking for what clicked, exploring it - and using those notions to delve deeper into my own understandings... so a lot of the foundation for what clicked was already in place from this initial legwork...
Matt:
I don't think those are necessarily two different approaches Ms.A. I think accomplishing one is almost ipso facto accomplishing the other.
Almost. These things are usually beautifully complicated in their simplicity.
Blessings,
Matt
Ms Ariel:
blackrose wrote:
QUOTE:
A quickie...
I agree that knowing yourself is a crucial first step. From my own experience, however singular that might be, it wasn't until I truly knew myself on some level... not until I started "being" and stopped "reacting"... that I was truly able to experience and understand anything...
I'm not sure I understand this...Aren't we usual a reactionary species? Can you explain a bit more the difference between "being" and "reacting", please?
Matt wrote:
QUOTE:
I don't think those are necessarily two different approaches Ms.A. I think accomplishing one is almost ipso facto accomplishing the other.
Almost. These things are usually beautifully complicated in their simplicity.
So if I understand what you're saying, that by searching for the Divine, I'll find what I truly believe in and what resonates with me?
blackrose wrote:
QUOTE:
Lastly, as for relationships... for me part of knowing who I am is to get past who I am in relationships into who I would be were there no compromises and no consequences. Of course we are social creatures and so there is always an element of this - but the core of Selfdom, the notions of knowing thyself, and actualizing has always, to me, been about individuality...
While I think I see and understand what you're saying her, I've always put so much stock on my relationships and that they are essentially what has defined me throughout my life. While this sounds odd, and without getting into a ton of details here, my relationship with my parents has always been a big factor for me, because without them, who know where I'd be or if I'd even be alive. I will clarify just bit for those who don't know, I'm adopted, so that statement does hold a lot of meaning to me.
Guess I have a ton more thinking.. I'm loving the comments and feedback, please keep them coming.
Blackrose:
MsAriel wrote:
QUOTE:
I'm not sure I understand this...Aren't we usual a reactionary species? Can you explain a bit more the difference between "being" and "reacting", please?
Yes, we usually are a reactionary species... mostly not prone to analysis and introspection. Therein lies part of the problem
I'm not sure how to explain it, so I'll try with an example...
When I was first disillusioned with Christianity I was very angry... angry at, well, a lot of things... angry at my indoctrination, angry at myself... angry at God...
Because, for me, losing my faith was a very traumatic experience... coupled with other experienced which I don't wish to divulge... I felt rather lost... I didn't know who I was anymore, because my belief was a large part of who I thought I was...
In the following years when I tried to explore my Self and my beliefs I had a lot of this anger still... and this kept me in place. I couldn't move forward because I couldn't let go of the past... I needed to deal with those issues, strip myself down to the core, and work my way back up...
In other words, I had to stop reacting to things based on my past and my experiences and start understanding them in a different way...
This is just one example. There's a lot about what we do and say on a regular basis which is a reaction of something. This can't be ignored or dismissed - that's not what I'm suggesting... and it does help us understand ourselves...
But it's not enough just to react... we have to understand why we're doing these things, we we react in the way that we react... and also to understand if this reaction is part of our essential selves, of it it's a remnant of the detritous of the past which needs to be let go...
Yes, the past shaped us... I'm not saying that our experiences don't go into making us who we are. What I am saying is that we are more than that... and that there are times when we need to move past that into a deeper understanding of our "essential selves" - to overuse a phrase
QUOTE:
While I think I see and understand what you're saying her, I've always put so much stock on my relationships and that they are essentially what has defined me throughout my life. While this sounds odd, and without getting into a ton of details here, my relationship with my parents has always been a big factor for me, because without them, who know where I'd be or if I'd even be alive. I will clarify just bit for those who don't know, I'm adopted, so that statement does hold a lot of meaning to me.
I fear I'll be repeating myself from above a touch...
Yes, we are defined, in many ways, by our past, our experiences, and our relationships... but they are still only a part of us...
To me our essential selfdom is sort of like who we are at the core of our being... it's less personality and more... Ugh, I really don't know how to say it...
Let's say that a part of my essential selfdom is a warrior... so it is naturally in me to fight... But what I fight and who I fight and how I fight and why I fight are things to be explored and understood. It's not enough to say "I'm a warrior, so I fight" - We also have to understand if our battles are ones that we truly believe in, or whether we're doing it because that's what we've always done...
I have always had a tumultuous relationship with my parents... and I have rebelled - the nascent individualist in me never being able to 'fit in'... and sometimes I have been the quintessential rebel without a clue - rebelling for the sake of rebelling...
But while it might be in me to rebel - I can't just *react*, I have to understand. Why am I rebelling? Against whom? Against them... or against the pieces of them I see in myself? Do I really want to rebell in X way? Is it really a reflection of who I am, or am I just going off half-cocked?
Some people would, say, rebel against Christianity and just go to the opposite extreme because it's the furthest away that they can get... But are they really being true to themselves, or just being reactionary?
Without consideration and reflection and understanding we could go through our entire lives just reacting off of one thing or the next thing without ever really getting to the heart of the matter...
And even if we say that the rebellion is born not of an essential nature but of experiences - even then the who, how and why need to be considered...
I "rebel" now by being the truest to myself that I can be... instead of blindly flailing against the world...
Again - this is just an example. I tend to use anecdotes a lot... it seems to make more sense that way... But it's just a finger pointing to the moon... it's important to remember that...
**Addendum: I was reading somthing and thinking a bit more about this, and was thinking it's not just specific people that we react to... but also to social expectations and obligations... People often due what they feel is expected of them, instead of what they want to do. Now while I'm not promoting pure hedonism for the sake of it (because that would be reactionary instead of considered ) - what I am saying is that there are some obligations we have... and some times when we need to assert our selves and not do things just because it's what other people want us to do, and so we react to their desires and their demands...
Or, if thinking of it in terms of reacting helps - sometimes you have to react to that little voice inside of yourself that says "Pay attention to me, now"
Darkk wrote:
QUOTE:
Without a knowledge of the self, a true portrayal of your own Selfdom, everything you take in is warped... a distortion of an echo, you might say. If you experience the Divine through an unrealized Selfdom, your experience will be woefully incomplete... and the potential to misunderstand or misinterpret is greatly increased.
I had a thought on this yesterday evening... and I wanted to build on it... with an example... (shock, I know...)
The example that came to mind is meditation...
When meditating on something... specifically when asking for guidance or help in understanding something... it's important to discern between subconscious ramblings and actual messages... (not that the subconscious doesn't give us messages... nor saying that the subconscious messages should be ignored... Only saying that it's important to know the difference - and what comes from within ourselves, and what genuinely comes from without... )
Anyway... the more you know your Self, your understandings and proclivities and thoughts... the easier it is to be able to sift through what your seeing and know what's purely from internal sources...
Likewise, when you know where you end, then it can make it easier to feel where something else begins... to feel energies and presences of things which are not you...
(This isn't even touching on the notion of things "out there" which do not have our best interest at heart and which might seek to influence us with our own reflections.. And this, of course, isn't just speaking of alleged beasties, but of other people, as well... If you know your own mind and your own Self, then it's hardest for people to manipulate or take advantage of you... )