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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:51:59 GMT -5
Original post by Darkk:
I was curious, among the people who frequent this thread, how is the configuration or connection of the mind, body, spirit, or soul viewed? I am interested in theories of how human life is constructed on the spiritual or metaphysical level... the nature of the physical self and/or the spiritual self. Do you believe that we possess a transcendental quality such as a spirit or soul, or that our physical selves somehow generate a spiritual essence or quality all its own? Is the mind connected firmly to the biological organ that houses it, or is there some non-physical component to it... that it somehow exists apart from our physical being, capable of independent existence from the whole?
Any and all theories are welcome.
- Darkk
Shannon:
I don't have a cut and dried answer, and it's a much easier topic for me to discuss in conversation then in this format. I'm also at a point where I'm trying to rediscover what I believe, so nothing is solid...
Sometimes I think the soul is just chemical. Love is a primitive response to the need for survival, along with language and art, even the idea that there are Gods. Maybe we're so hardwired to survive, that we even have to find ways to try and survive after death.
On the other hand, I have such a strong opinion on being buried; of my sould being trapped inside form, in a box, underground, for eternity. My 'gut' says it's better to be cremated so that my soul can rise and dissipate unfettered.
I recently read, not in a scientific journal, but in some random bloggy type thing, that consciousness is tied into your DNA- and that mathematically there are only so many different combinations of DNA possible, so you are bound to be born again... and again, and again. I haven't been able to find anything that backs this up though. Thought it was interesting nonetheless.
Bear:
I’m not going to speculate on pre-life and post-life aspects of the mind-body-spirit relationship. Its just not something that I’m interested in.
But as far as the relationship goes for the living…
The body is, of course, our physical body of an individual. The spirit/soul is the essence and everything that is non-physical about an individual. The mind is the connection between the body and the spirit. Therefore mind is part physical and part non-physical.
When doing things like astral traveling or vision questing, the spirit is never completely free of the body. The mind still connects it to the body via a gossamer-like thread even though the body is dormant. Conversely, when under intense physical exertion, the physical body is very active, but the spirit may retreat or become dormant allowing the body to act using its natural instincts.
When death or brain-death occurs, the connection between the spirit and body through the mind is broken. The body and the physical part of the mind die and decay away. The spirit and non-physical part of the mind go off to do whatever they do in the afterlife.
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:52:29 GMT -5
Darkk:
Shannon wrote:
QUOTE: I don't have a cut and dried answer, and it's a much easier topic for me to discuss in conversation then in this format. I'm also at a point where I'm trying to rediscover what I believe, so nothing is solid...
Sometimes I think the soul is just chemical. Love is a primitive response to the need for survival, along with language and art, even the idea that there are Gods. Maybe we're so hardwired to survive, that we even have to find ways to try and survive after death.
I can understand the origins of these thoughts... I have, in my past, been tempted to think much the same. My only (albeit, quite massive when I think on it) problem with this approach is in the behavior of humans. If so much of our culture and society is foisted on simple biological imperatives such as survival... why are we so easily able to suborn our own imperatives for purposes of our own? The human predilection for seeking meaning for what could, in the pure quest for survival, be safely ignored strikes me as meaningful in and of itself... as if we somehow intuited or had a a priori understanding of something larger in scope than ourselves. But that, of course, is just my take on it... and it is quite conceivable that I could be wrong about it.
Shannon wrote:
QUOTE: On the other hand, I have such a strong opinion on being buried; of my sould being trapped inside form, in a box, underground, for eternity. My 'gut' says it's better to be cremated so that my soul can rise and dissipate unfettered.
I recently read, not in a scientific journal, but in some random bloggy type thing, that consciousness is tied into your DNA- and that mathematically there are only so many different combinations of DNA possible, so you are bound to be born again... and again, and again. I haven't been able to find anything that backs this up though. Thought it was interesting nonetheless.
This is interesting in that it calls up the age-old debate... what is it that makes us who we individually are? That DNA has only so many mathematical permutations is quite correct... but do our genetics alone determine who we are, or do our life-experiences have a hand in that? While it is possible for someone out there to be born with a genetic makeup practically identical to my own, there is no way for them to be born into the same circumstances... they would be part of a different society, a different time, and would in turn be changed by those influences. I could only wonder how similar to me they might turn out to be in those circumstances... would I recognize part of myself in them, or would we be so totally different as to be unrecognizable from our common source, so to speak.
- Darkk
bear wrote:
QUOTE: I’m not going to speculate on pre-life and post-life aspects of the mind-body-spirit relationship. Its just not something that I’m interested in.
This is... enigmatic. So you are uninterested in theories concerning what follows or precedes life, or just in the development and/or dissolution of the mind-body-spirit relationship? No need to expound, but if you could clarify for future reference?
bear wrote:
QUOTE: But as far as the relationship goes for the living…
The body is, of course, our physical body of an individual. The spirit/soul is the essence and everything that is non-physical about an individual. The mind is the connection between the body and the spirit. Therefore mind is part physical and part non-physical.
You speak very definitively on the matter. While I tend to agree, there are some schools of thought that the body has a spiritual analog, so to speak... that its physical composition is an echo or accretion of a metaphysical substance that exists apart from its physical matter or related portions (e.g. the Mind and Soul/Spirit). I also tend to view the Mind as a kind of bridge between the unincorporated Selfdom (the essence of the Soul, in my view) and the physical shell of the body.
bear wrote:
QUOTE: When doing things like astral traveling or vision questing, the spirit is never completely free of the body. The mind still connects it to the body via a gossamer-like thread even though the body is dormant. Conversely, when under intense physical exertion, the physical body is very active, but the spirit may retreat or become dormant allowing the body to act using its natural instincts.
When death or brain-death occurs, the connection between the spirit and body through the mind is broken. The body and the physical part of the mind die and decay away. The spirit and non-physical part of the mind go off to do whatever they do in the afterlife.
I am reminded of the image of the "Silver Cord," the filament of self-stuff connecting the spiritual self to the physical self, as it were. I find your stance on brain death to be interesting, though... do you feel that the destruction or death of the physical brain somehow severs that necessary connection, or do you feel that the act is somehow self-initiated on some level by the person who has the trauma? Also, do you feel that the soul or spirit is not part of physical exertion in any case... or are you referring to the classical "fight or flight" response arising from sympathetic autonomic systems in the body?
- Darkk
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:53:01 GMT -5
Shannon:
Darkk wrote:
QUOTE: as if we somehow intuited or had a a priori understanding of something larger in scope than ourselves. But that, of course, is just my take on it... and it is quite conceivable that I could be wrong about it.
Anthropologists have been trying to discover what led modern man to develop speech and language after centuries without... what was the spark, what motivated them, what triggered it? It'd be interesting to know for sure, and for me, what does this quest for meaning and understanding, that's obviously evolved over time, mean about the nature of soul? Were early man souless? Did some divine spark set it off, some awareness that birthed soul? And if it's connected to DNA, mind and body... is it a genetic mutation?
Here I am rambling without a clue again...do aliens live on the far side of the moon?
QUOTE: This is interesting in that it calls up the age-old debate... what is it that makes us who we individually are? That DNA has only so many mathematical permutations is quite correct... but do our genetics alone determine who we are, or do our life-experiences have a hand in that? While it is possible for someone out there to be born with a genetic makeup practically identical to my own, there is no way for them to be born into the same circumstances... they would be part of a different society, a different time, and would in turn be changed by those influences. I could only wonder how similar to me they might turn out to be in those circumstances... would I recognize part of myself in them, or would we be so totally different as to be unrecognizable from our common source, so to speak.
We were able to touch on this just abit in chat, where I had decided in the moment that the industrial revolution was proof that even if the genetic make-up was identical, the soul would not be. Otherwise, there would be no room for evolution and progress.
But, in the same five minute span, I've changed my mind once again. To me, the changing face of art and technological landscape doesn't necessarily prove that different circumstances and experience bring on a new world view that changes the original soul into something else. Why can't our soul grow upon what's already been established? We do it everyday in our lives, without losing a sense of self. It's like sleeping in the middle of the project, only to awake and continue towards it's progress.
Blackrose:
Shannon wrote:
QUOTE: Anthropologists have been trying to discover what led modern man to develop speech and language after centuries without... what was the spark, what motivated them, what triggered it? It'd be interesting to know for sure, and for me, what does this quest for meaning and understanding, that's obviously evolved over time, mean about the nature of soul? Were early man souless? Did some divine spark set it off, some awareness that birthed soul? And if it's connected to DNA, mind and body... is it a genetic mutation?
In this particular stance, I am more inclined that think that evolution was more a product of the mind than of the soul...
This is predicated on the fact that I believe that the divine spark resides within all living things (and I have a rather expansive notion of 'living things'...
That was one of my initial breaks with Christianity, tho... I could not stomach the notion that only humans had souls...
But, then, I also have a rather larger scope of "awareness" as well...
As for the initial question itself - I do want to respond to it, but I don't have the time to really formulate my thoughts presently... They actually expect me to get some work done for a change!
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:53:32 GMT -5
Matt: Darkk (concurring with Bear): QUOTE: I also tend to view the Mind as a kind of bridge between the unincorporated Selfdom (the essence of the Soul, in my view) and the physical shell of the body. This is my take on it also. Darkk: QUOTE: That DNA has only so many mathematical permutations is quite correct... but do our genetics alone determine who we are, or do our life-experiences have a hand in that? And some say our life experiences become imprinted on our DNA. Not sure where I stand on that, I'm just throwing it out there. Shannon: QUOTE: Here I am rambling without a clue again...do aliens live on the far side of the moon? I'm not sure, but I think David Gilmour does. Blessings, Matt Darkk: Shannon wrote: QUOTE: Anthropologists have been trying to discover what led modern man to develop speech and language after centuries without... what was the spark, what motivated them, what triggered it? It'd be interesting to know for sure, and for me, what does this quest for meaning and understanding, that's obviously evolved over time, mean about the nature of soul? Were early man souless? Did some divine spark set it off, some awareness that birthed soul? And if it's connected to DNA, mind and body... is it a genetic mutation? Here I am rambling without a clue again...do aliens live on the far side of the moon? My personal take on this is that all living things contain a portion, or perhaps a shard, of the transcendent Totality within themselves. In simpler animals, this shard is perhaps smaller than in humans... but perhaps its presence allows them to possess their own kind of individuality, their own essential Selfdom, which is formative of their personality. It is that shard that, once recognized (if only in the abstract sense) allows for introspection... a refraction against which we can see ourselves as separate from everything else, but still connected on a grander scale. I would say speech and language derive from this recognition... our stumbling attempts to bind our understandings into repeatable patterns or motifs, so that we might share them and expound on them in a collective fashion. Shannon wrote: QUOTE: We were able to touch on this just abit in chat, where I had decided in the moment that the industrial revolution was proof that even if the genetic make-up was identical, the soul would not be. Otherwise, there would be no room for evolution and progress. But, in the same five minute span, I've changed my mind once again. To me, the changing face of art and technological landscape doesn't necessarily prove that different circumstances and experience bring on a new world view that changes the original soul into something else. Why can't our soul grow upon what's already been established? We do it everyday in our lives, without losing a sense of self. It's like sleeping in the middle of the project, only to awake and continue towards it's progress. Unfortunately, I am not quite sure I follow... or perhaps I just need further explanation to reply fully. My mention of changing art or technology was an extension of the understanding that the environment which informs a person's sense of self is in flux, styles and their apparatuses change because circumstances change... they reflect the changes in ourselves, even if the baseline remains the same. We were referring to DNA/genetics as that baseline before... I am unsure if you are putting the soul or spirit on the same level as DNA/genetics in this case. - Darkk
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:53:55 GMT -5
Blackrose:
Darkk wrote:
QUOTE: I was curious, among the people who frequent this thread, how is the configuration or connection of the mind, body, spirit, or soul viewed?
I have been working on a system which sort of blends systems... it's not complete, and there's some vagueness to pieces of it that I haven't quite worked out yet...
Ultimately, I've been working with the notion of spirit as a thing separate from soul, instead of as synonomous with it...
The soul is the essence - the core of Being... that which connects us to the Totality, that which gives us the core of who we are at the essential level, and is a conglomerate, in a way, of various Universal essences - these same essences of which are, in their own ways, the souls of the gods...
Mind is awareness - not necessarily consciousness and thought, that that could be part of it... but also just a simple sense of awareness of "self" and of "being" (because I don't want to limit mind to an understanding of human thought and conceptions... )
Body is the easiest part, of course - it is the physical manifestation... (tho, of course, less easy when considering the 'life' of something which exists on a more abstract and not necessarily corporeal level)
Spirit, then, is the bridge between the three as well as the initiating force or Divine Spark. This is where things get tricky because at death some sense of spirit dies, because we no longer have that spark... but, in another sense, I believe that spirit is also a sort of avataristic thing, an embodiement of the soul and the bridge of the three which can exist when the body ceases...
YEah - like I said, I'm working on it...
QUOTE: I am interested in theories of how human life is constructed on the spiritual or metaphysical level... the nature of the physical self and/or the spiritual self.
As I said, I believe that the soul is made of of various Universal Essences... that while we all have these essences within us, we have them to differing degrees. The essences are like ingredients and we're like cakes - we're all different cakes depending on the amounts and types of ingredients used... (and this doesn't even bring in icing and decoration, which would be personality and/or persona which comes about, I think, from the connection of the soul through experience and thought... )
QUOTE: Do you believe that we possess a transcendental quality such as a spirit or soul, or that our physical selves somehow generate a spiritual essence or quality all its own?
I believe that the soul is transcendant - that it comes from the Totality and will return to the Totality...
And I also believe that the spirit is "generated" by being the bridge and gateway...
QUOTE: Is the mind connected firmly to the biological organ that houses it, or is there some non-physical component to it... that it somehow exists apart from our physical being, capable of independent existence from the whole?
I think that there's a non-physical component to it... perhaps because I feel that non-physical things can have "minds" of a sort...
I think that mind and spirit have the largest overlap in the above working model - but that there are differences which make them different..
In a way, the spirit is almost like the personality which is formed via the essential nature of the soul, and our experiences in this body/life, and our thoughts and perceptions therein...
(I'm also exploring the Egyptian model of the soul and seeing how that fits into this, or this into that, as the case may be... )
Sorry if that's a bit random and semi-incoherent... I'm trying to squeeze it in before I have to catch my train!
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:54:30 GMT -5
Bear:
Darkk,
I just find the pre-life and post-life speculation to be a pointless exercise. As long as we are alive, we’ll never know what happens before life or after life and discussions tend to get quite dogmatic. My philosophy is since I’m currently alive, I’ll center my thinking on what it means to be alive. When I’m dead I’ll have plenty of time to think about the afterlife.
The question was how do each of us view the relationship. I speak definitively on my views.
I do see the spirit as not having a physical component to it. Only the mind has the ability to bridge the gap between the physical and not physical worlds.
The body can react with the spirit being dormant through the classic fight or flight reaction. There is also muscle memory that comes from physical training and performing the same exercise repeatedly. This can cover everything from how our legs move when we walk without us having to think, “Okay legs start moving” to the various forms of martial arts to instinctual behavior. I might even extend it to things like phobias because many of them don’t have a rational basis.
I see the brain as being part of the physical aspect of the mind. If the brain is dead, the link between the spirit and body is broken.
As for the nature (DNA) vs. nurture (experience) argument… Sure people have a bit of programming from their DNA for certain behaviors. Sure people have a bit of programming from their personal experiences for certain behaviors. But people are not limited by either set of programmings. People are more complex than that. People can choose to act against their nature and against learned behaviors.
Darkk:
bear wrote:
QUOTE: I just find the pre-life and post-life speculation to be a pointless exercise. As long as we are alive, we’ll never know what happens before life or after life and discussions tend to get quite dogmatic. My philosophy is since I’m currently alive, I’ll center my thinking on what it means to be alive. When I’m dead I’ll have plenty of time to think about the afterlife.
An understandable position, Bear. I thought it interesting because much of life, and the study of its living, seems to be informed on theories and beliefs regarding the things that preceded it or may occur after its ending... in the same fashion that darkness partly defines light, or good partly defines evil.
bear wrote:
QUOTE: The question was how do each of us view the relationship. I speak definitively on my views.
I posited it as a curiosity about theories concerning the relationship... as, like the nature of the afterlife, it is difficult if not impossible to know these things on a fundamental or concrete level. Speaking so definitively about a theory seemed odd... no offense to you.
bear wrote:
QUOTE: I do see the spirit as not having a physical component to it. Only the mind has the ability to bridge the gap between the physical and not physical worlds.
The body can react with the spirit being dormant through the classic fight or flight reaction. There is also muscle memory that comes from physical training and performing the same exercise repeatedly. This can cover everything from how our legs move when we walk without us having to think, “Okay legs start moving” to the various forms of martial arts to instinctual behavior. I might even extend it to things like phobias because many of them don’t have a rational basis.
I see the brain as being part of the physical aspect of the mind. If the brain is dead, the link between the spirit and body is broken.
Your concept of the spirit becoming dormant is an interesting one... I will have to think on it more before I come to any form of conclusion. As for cases of brain death... what do you make of those people who appeared to recover from observed brain death? Do you feel that despite the biological symptoms, perhaps the metaphysical link was not severed... or that the diagnosis was simply incorrect?
bear wrote:
QUOTE: As for the nature (DNA) vs. nurture (experience) argument… Sure people have a bit of programming from their DNA for certain behaviors. Sure people have a bit of programming from their personal experiences for certain behaviors. But people are not limited by either set of programmings. People are more complex than that. People can choose to act against their nature and against learned behaviors.
Agreed.
- Darkk
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:55:30 GMT -5
Bear:
I would go with a probable misdiagnosis.
Of course, there is also the possibility of walk-ins. What ever it is that enables the connection between the spirit and the body with the spark of life might also, under certain circumstances, allow for a spirit to connect to a more mature body.
I don't know, I'll have to think about that one some more.
Blackrose:
I had thought of a metaphor to go with my new system in process... I shared it with Darkk yesterday, but I thought I'd post it here for anyone else who may be interested...
The World Tree...
The Mind would be akin to the Upper Realm(s)... the Soul/Essence to the Lower... and the Body, of course, to the Middle...
The Spirit, then, would be the Tree itself - both that which connects the realms, as well as being a manifestation of that connection and of them...
Ms Ariel:
Is the World Tree something you came up with, or did someone else, and if so, is there more on it somewhere? It sounds interesting.
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:56:24 GMT -5
Darkk: The World Tree is a symbol or understanding that is common to several religions and spiritualities... perhaps the most common one it is associated with is Asatru or traditional Norse beliefs. It has analogs in mystical Judaism in the form of the Sephiroth, as well as a number of other shamanic and/or tribal belief-systems. - Darkk Blackrose: It's also sometimes used interchangably as "The Tree of Life" Billy: I feel that mind-body-spirit-soul are all seperate yet interconnected portions our selves. As to how these connections work-I don't know. I do see and hear things beyond 3-dimensional contructs. My visions are of "spirit", areas of white "something". I also see "physical" manifestations coming out of this "spirit" not as ghosts but actual "bodily" forms. I expeience doing things with my "mind" without actually hearing myself. As to how it works I can't say. Ramtha speaks of the soul as being a recorder of feelings, thoughts and emotions. The Wingmakers talk about the heart being an integral part of the system. I thought all the posts had something interesting to say. Thanks, I may have more to say in the future. If anyone is interested here are a couple of links. www.wingmakers.comwww.ramtha.comAlso here is a link to an on-line book called "Zen Physics and Reincarnation" or something like that. I'm still reading it. www.daviddarling.info/works/ZenPhisics/ZenPhysics_front_1.html
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:56:59 GMT -5
Chill:
Darkk asked:
QUOTE: I was curious, among the people who frequent this thread, how is the configuration or connection of the mind, body, spirit, or soul viewed? I am interested in theories of how human life is constructed on the spiritual or metaphysical level... the nature of the physical self and/or the spiritual self. Do you believe that we possess a transcendental quality such as a spirit or soul, or that our physical selves somehow generate a spiritual essence or quality all its own? Is the mind connected firmly to the biological organ that houses it, or is there some non-physical component to it... that it somehow exists apart from our physical being, capable of independent existence from the whole?
To compare my view with something we can all relate to -- our bodies are the computer housing, our brains are it's hard drive and our soul is the electricity that brings it all to life.
Okay so we're a bit more complicated than that. I believe our souls, spirits, life energy, electromagnetic energy whatever you want to call it, is part of the Divine Spark from the Gods, and contains a consciousness. Our spirits are literally part of Their creative energy, and every living thing has a piece of it. We all contain droplets from the vast "ocean" of this Spark. And that is what makes us all different; no two living beings have the exact same particle of energy (although after death it can be attached to another life form).
Our life energy and consciousness permeates our mind and body and interacts with them intimately. That is why we literally feel "heartbroken" when someone we love dies, or feel our stomachs knot when we're worried. Our minds are of course housed in our bodies, but can travel with our spirits when we project our energy (astral projection - although I've never been too good at that) and we can use our minds to focus and direct energy - either from within ourselves (our own life force) or gather it from other sources. I believe when we die our spirit and consciousness are severed from our bodies and minds, and have the option to pass into another dimension or plane of existence and continue on.
Merry part, Cheryl
Faeng:
Simply put without going into a lot of tedious detail my stand point is we are souls inhabiting a body. I don't feel that we have souls, I think that in the big picture of things that is simply what we are. The rest is just so we can function, and experience life on Earth.
Darkk:
Faeng wrote:
QUOTE: Simply put without going into a lot of tedious detail my stand point is we are souls inhabiting a body. I don't feel that we have souls, I think that in the big picture of things that is simply what we are. The rest is just so we can function, and experience life on Earth.
So, if I follow you correctly, you feel that the essence of Selfdom is unique or confined to the soul itself... and that the body doesn't figure into "who" or "what" we truly are on the elemental level? An interesting viewpoint, I admit... though it makes me wonder why the body is even necessary... to what purpose do we require it in order to experience our lives?
- Darkk
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Post by E on Apr 23, 2009 16:57:19 GMT -5
Faeng:
That I think is a little more difficult to put into words. Experiences and feelings on the astral even though just as real are different in a lot of ways compared to experiences and feelings here. The astral at least to me has a more fluid movement or flow than this reality. Where as this is more solid and harsh. I believe that we need both of these experiences to grow and understand. To give us a sense of balance in our growth. Maybe we need the limitations of the body to learn these things. We need the restrictions so that we actually take the journey. After all if everything is just handed to a person does it still have the same value as something that has been worked for?
Since I believe in reincarnation I think that the body may have influence on who the "physical" person is in this life along with experiences they have, but it just adds to what is already there. Genetics do play a role but that varies from person to person as well. Experiences are a real key to a person. We learn and alter our perceptions of things at any given moment from our experiences.
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