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Post by Shannon on Sept 9, 2009 17:09:30 GMT -5
So, I'm having a difficult time reconciling what I know of the wheel with the seasons we have here in the Sonoran Desert. Sure, it's been three years since I've lived here, but I still haven't gotten a feel for it. Basically, we have four months of blistering hell and eight months of mild weather. It's honestly kinda maddening. Last week it *felt* like fall was moving in; there were dark clouds, a veiled moon and that sense in the air... But there won't be any changing leaves, no organic mulch- it'll basically be a second spring with renewed blooms and pleasant temperatures. Winter isn't much better- you'll just notice one day that some trees are bare and it's time to wear a hoodie. I've done a bit of research and it's even more confusing. The O'Okaham (don't google, I spelled it completely wrong) didn't have seasons but celebrated each moon. That might be a good direction and I should order the book off Amazon. Other sites said that we have five seasons: Spring, wet Summer, dry Summer,Fall and Winter. But again, these really aren't expressions of the seasons in a 'trbaditional' sense. Sigh. I swear it's like I live on Mars. Don't get me wrong. I love the desert for what it is and I spent a lot of my childhood here, maybe... I'm trying to hard to fit it into a structure in which it doesn't belong, but the structure is the only starting point I can see. I even thought about Fall as a time of illusions, and tricks, and change- which would fit for a Fall that is Spring. But I'm still pretty lost. Any insight would be appreciated, if you know any desert dwellers please ask them how they view the wheel here, ANYthing.
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Post by Denethor on Sept 14, 2009 18:12:11 GMT -5
Frankly, I've often felt that way about celebrating the Pagan seasons anywhere outside of Merrie Olde England. Up in Minnesota, it was five months of winter...we had a joke song about Beltane being all icy and below-zero...and here in the DC area, it's like the opposite, with five months of High Summer and very short, almost perfunctory other seasons. Being Northern at heart, I'm all ready for changing leaves and frost on the pumpkins but as I type this I'm still hearing the last of today's summer-weather daytime cicadas.
And it is one of my perennial questions, what do Pagans in Australia do about the Quarters. Just an aside.
There seem to be two basic schools of thought. One uses the seasons/holidays/Quarters as they were set up in the "old school", to honor tradition. This is common in the more ceremonial schools of practice (it is not surprising, however, that this sort of tradition is more often practiced indoors than the other variety. I guess it's just easier to ignore that the weather's wrong and all the astronomical bodies are in the wrong spots when you're stumbling along a candlelit hallway, concentrating on not catching your robe on fire).
The other appears to be more organic, adapting traditions to the places and times in which they find themselves. This appears to be more common among the eclectic sort, one of whose strengths tends to be adaptability (I know we have a sort of mini-tradition of bashing eclecticism in our little community, but they do have their strengths, and that is one of them).
There's something to be said for each approach. On the one hand, doing things an older or "more traditional" way feels deeply connected in a way an over-adapted ritual does not. But I'll agree, celebrating "frost on the pumpkins" at Samhain might feel a bit silly in Sonora. You might have to do some thinking, picking out the practices that feel right, so you can celebrate without feeling artificial or out of touch with your environment.
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Post by blackrose on Sept 15, 2009 8:28:38 GMT -5
And it is one of my perennial questions, what do Pagans in Australia do about the Quarters. Just an aside. I've always heard they just reverse them. Only grab-bag eclecticism. It would be hard to bash all types of eclecticism given that most of us are eclectic. Lenny: You know my take - celebrate what you have where you have it. Mingle with the local land spirits... get into the feel of the energy of your land, your place, your seasons, etc, etc. You know how much I hate the "date-based" seasonal celebrations... I know it's hard coming from a place where you used to have seasons, and now you don't. Honestly, I'm not sure how I'd cope. I love autumn and I love spring, and I couldn't live in the desert. That said - have you ever travelled to Verde Canyon? We were there last year in October, and it was lovely. Much cooler than Sonora or Tempe. That said, here's that link I was telling you about - the article about Desert Seasons. It's not really from a pagan perspective, per se, but it discusses the changes and types of seasons experienced in the Sonoran Desert. If temperature and climate variations aren't really working for you, there's also the more celestial events - the solstices and equinoxes, and the lunar months, the changing constellations - that sort of thing. Here's another link, this one about the Egyptian year. I'm not sure how much good it'll do, since it's still not entirely relevant to where you are, being at least partially based on the flooding of the Nile, I thought some of the "3 seasons of 4 months" thing might be relevant. I think one of the biggest "issues", perhaps, is just the feeling of not being in line with other Neopagans. But, as Den said, the 'standard' seasonal stuff really is specific to the Isles and to places of similar temperate climates. If it's any consolation, I'm not that far behind you. While I do live in a temperate climate, with gods honest seasons ( ), I also often fall out of step with the Neopagan festivals, which fall on the fixed dates. It's funny the looks you get when you wish someone a happy Lughnassadh at the end of August even into September, when, as far as they're concerned, it happened almost a month or more ago. Anyway, I think it might be a matter of accepting a different notion of seasons, instead of trying to reconcile what you knew with where you are. No easy task. Of course, you could always just move to a more sensible climate. Failing that, I'll try not to rub it in too much when the lovely, cool autumn weather comes in and the leaves change and everything is lovely in its entropic decay... but only if you promise not to rub it in too much that you're still cozy while I'm freezing my ass off in the dark days of winter.
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Post by Denethor on Sept 15, 2009 14:21:31 GMT -5
Happy Lughnassadh, br... Grab bag eclecticism...I remember a Yule ritual I used to attend up North, where everyone brought something for the "gift sack", which was then brought around by Baba Yaga (of course ) and everyone took a surprise gift back out. "Grab bag" just reminded me of that, and as ought to be obvious that was a pretty eclectic group, in both positive and negative ways. Most of them were decent people but their public rituals had a tendency to bring out some of the types we like to rail against. I used to use the term "willy nilly eclectic", 'way back before anyone even talked about "fluffies"; maybe I'll go back to that. My seasonal issue tends to not be getting funny looks when I wish people happy holidays when I feel ready to celebrate them (otherwise, where I am, it would never be Yule), more that I feel weird watching them approach on the calendar when I don't feel ready. Sheesh, my calendar tells me that the astronomical autumn equinox is a week from today, and it's eighty-four degrees. Not like the desert, no; but odd in its own way.
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Post by blackrose on Sept 15, 2009 16:17:54 GMT -5
Happy Lughnassadh, br... Danke... One reason that I've avoided public rituals and gatherings like the plague... Yeah... I don't celebrate the solstices and equinoxes as seasonal things for pretty much this reason. I celebrate them, if at all, as solar festivals - the triumph of light/dark, or the turnings, or just the balance aspects. I don't really hold to the solstices or equinoxes that much, except as a passing thing. My seasonal things are entirely separate affairs. I've actually thought of trying to come up with names aside from the Celtic ones for the seasonal festivals, because a) I'm always leary of cultural appropriation, even if I'm loosely associated with it and b) my version of the festivals is a bit different from the Wiccan version. But then I figure that it's the Wicca who changed them, so, really, they stole them and they're using it wrong... so why should I change the names I use when I follow closer to a Celtic Recon version of them? (Speaking of cultural appropriation and alteration thereof, I'm not really too keen on Gardner for that... ) And I loathe the usage of the Christianized names. Anyway... Erm... where was I? Oh, yes... seasons... There's this woman at work who was counting down the days to Spring this year, and I kept telling her that Spring was a season, not a date on the calendar. Though I understand for trads and large groups, it's probably hard to just do the whole "It feels like Autumn for the first time today - let's celebrate". So that's an advantage of being solitary... Oh, and the veil isn't thin on Oct 31st just because we say it is, either. Um - I keep getting sidetracked. I had another thing I was going to say, but I forget now...
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Post by Denethor on Sept 17, 2009 21:50:12 GMT -5
When it comes to names, I'm fond of the simple astronomical: Spring and Fall Equinox, Winter and Summer Solstice. One of my earliest attractions to Paganism was its use of astronomically determined holidays, as this appealed to my sciencey side. This doesn't do much for the cross-quarters, though, which in many ways have the most colorful traditions associated with them. On the other hand, the astronomical nature of the holidays/festivals can address some of the concerns raised in the opening post. Maybe some nature hiking on the appropriate days (or nights if there's a lot of desert heat) to determine what the natural phenomena are around each time of year? Or maybe involve even more science, and take a trip to the observatory (assuming they give occasional tours, which I think most of them do). Of course I'm showing my own colors there: if I lived in the desert Southwest, it would be the clear, start-studded night sky that is possible in that dry air that would fascinate me. I'd say if your veil gets too thin, it's time to purchase a new one...didn't know Pagan women wore veils in the first place... (That said, it brings up thoughts of the utility of ritual veiling, but that's way off topic).
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Post by blackrose on Sept 18, 2009 9:47:58 GMT -5
When it comes to names, I'm fond of the simple astronomical: Spring and Fall Equinox, Winter and Summer Solstice. One of my earliest attractions to Paganism was its use of astronomically determined holidays, as this appealed to my sciencey side. This doesn't do much for the cross-quarters, though, which in many ways have the most colorful traditions associated with them. That's the thing, tho. Depending on which tradition and which notion of reckoning, they're not, necessarily - at least not in the sense of them being the seasonal beginnings. The solstices are referred to as "Midwinter" and "Midsummer" for nothing, after all. Regardless, when I was referring to names I was referring to the Fire Festivals, anyway. (I don't like calling them the "cross-quarter" days since that implies that fall between the solstices and the equinoxes, which is true in the fixed-date Wiccan Wheel, but not true if you celebrate them as actual seasonal observances, which they originally were. Thus my reference to the Neopagan misuse of such names/holidays as astronomical and astrological "mid-markers".) Actually, I find the whole Wheel to be odd, contradictory and repetitive. For instance, I always felt that the symbolisms and celebrations of Imbolc and Eostre are, essentially, the same things with very minor differences. It's what comes of taking what are essentially the same observances from two different cultures and mashing them into one wheel. On the other hand, it has always reminded me of something I read in one of the Discworld books, though I can't remember which one. Pratchett made reference at some point to the concept of Greater and Lesser Spring, for instance. Essentially, in the 8-fold year, Imbolc would be lesser Spring - the first inklings of Spring, whereas the equinox would by both sort of "mid-spring" as well as the turning point into greater Spring. The lesser seasons are sort of the inbetween times - when it's a little bit Winter and a little bit Spring and they're sort of duking it out, and some days are more one or the other, until it turns into Spring proper. Of course, there's also evidence that the Norse didn't celebrate spring on the equinox, either, even thought that's the common statement of where Eostre being on the equinox comes from. (It more likely was attributed to April in general.) I have toyed with the notion of making my own 8-fold year which is seasonal and not astronomical, but find "lesser Spring and greater Spring" not nearly poetic enough, but also balk at using Imbolc and Eostre because of a) the aforementioned cultural appropriation and b) the assumption that most people would make that I'm referring to the Wiccan notion of such. (i.e. the fixed dates) Still never made sense to me to have seasonal celebrations on calendar dates instead of agrarian actuality, but, anyway... That said, Darkk's tradition thingie is very much in the celestial markers - the solstices and equinoxes. I'm not sure they follow it as seasonal things, per se, or if it's more abstract. Of course, as I was saying to shannon, if the seasonal stuff doesn't match up with the notion of "new beginnings" or "things coming to an end" - then the solar stuff is definitely a more stable indication of the passage of time and whatnot. "Increase of light" = new beginnings... "lenthening nights" = "coming to an end", so on and so forth. I think temperate zones just have the benefit of having the solar and the seasonal generally, if not specifically, line up. I'm glad you're joking, since that's not even remotely the right kind of Veil.
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Post by Denethor on Sept 18, 2009 12:23:52 GMT -5
They're not, really...just markers of the lengths of days. They don't come at the beginning of the "meteorologically appropriate" times of year, of course, and they aren't really exactly at the middle...for instance, the hottest summer days tend to come in July and August, not around June 21st, because of the lag time in warming up the atmosphere. Since most of these NeoPagans(TM) aren't much into climatology, though, I doubt that sort of adjustment is all that popular. What I like about the astronomical calendar isn't so much an "authenticity" in the sense of recreating any sort of ancient tradition as its association with a sort of universal, worldwide marker - not something just to do with the supposed date of birth of anyone's Messiah or national hero or supposed date of independence from anyone else or any like that (though it's interesting to note how often these supposedly "historical" dates get "moved around" to fit on or near the astronomical holidays. Everyone wants their thing to have a "cosmic connection", I guess). The fact that it has something vague to do with outer space doesn't hurt. In short, I like its simple, unapologetic nerdiness. Just a taste thing, not an authenticity thing. Not being part of Darkk's particular tradition, I can't tell you whether their motivations are nature-based or abstract, but I can tell you that the abstract thing is pretty common in the ceremonial line of work. It's more "hall magic" than "field magic"; astronomy is a common justification but natural changes on the ground less so. If I wanted to go waaay off topic I could stray into my theories of why that is, which include at best an attempt at universal (not single climate or nation) appeal and at worst an internalization of the anti-nature and anti-flesh sentiment found in some religions, with the ever-popular some of both option. But that would be speculation and also not really related to the current discussion. Very true; of course when you consider how beastly the weather often still is in Northern parts of the world in mid-March, is it really all that surprising? More surprising of course is that NeoWiccans Ltd., who are supposedly so in touch with nature, can't see that for themselves. Guess that's what happens when your "festivals" take place in someone's living room (or online!) and your "connection with nature" consists of browsing the Peterson's Field Guides in addition to the "witchcraft" shelf. Equinoxes were always less likely to be celebrated as such than solstices because unless you have access to a giant stone temple that may or may not have also been designed to be an astronomical calculator, it's simply harder to find the correct date of the equinox without modern time measurement. Chances are the solstice days weren't perfectly on point either. Full moons might have been easier to get - but then, not everyone would want to party, because the full moon is also an excellent work opportunity; diurnal humans have an easier time hunting night critters at full moons. So who knows what's up with that. In any event, for those with the technology the ancients had, weather is a lot easier to use than astronomy, for the most part. So I too really doubt that the "Wheel" as we see it today was ever actually applied by an ancient society, Celtic, Norse, or otherwise. "Cross-quarter" days as they are presented in NeoPaganism(TM) are clearly a modern invention, though some of the specific things done at the festivals may have a folkloristic or other historical background. Of course, some traditions and groups are better than others at researching that, and the shlock one finds in the "alternative spirituality" (alternative to what? Atheism is starting to look better and better again...sigh...) section of the bookstore is usually the worst of all. Considering our paucity of historical sources - in many cases merely fragmentary, often sensationalized reports written by the enemies of the culture(s) under study, we'll probably never know. So...what I do is figure that the basic point, with some variation, of any "festival" is to celebrate, worship if it's applicable, and have fun. So I do what I enjoy, and what has meaning to me, and leave the rest. Of course I was joking. Sheesh!
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Post by blackrose on Sept 18, 2009 14:13:48 GMT -5
Funnily enough, I'm wearing a t-shirt with an outer space design on it. But, anyway - I think a lot of it just comes down to focus and preference, as you say. I am, personally, less concerned with universalness as I am with locality - which is why I do the seasonal thing when and as they happen, and less on the celestial events, which are certainly less prone to move on you, being rather fixed and all that. :> It is generally more ceremonliastic - definitely more abstract, mechanistic, "high magic" sort of thing. They tend to look down on the hedge witches - a trait he does not have, which is a good thing lest I'd have to beat it out of him. *grins* Overall my point for shannon was two-fold, in a round about way (to get marginally back on topic): 1) If you're going to celebrate actual seasonal celebrations, it's silly to do them out of wack with the actual seasons, and, on that level, you have to explore and connect with the seasons you have in your own part of the world. 2) For a more universal, but less seasonal thing, the solar events are quite a good marker. It's a pity, too. I prefer the equinoxes. Though the solstice are good times for "at least the days will be getting longer/shorter!" And you don't have to doubt. I'm pretty sure the historical evidence bears out that no culture ever celebrated the Wheel as it is. Of course, most Wiccans know this. This works quite well. As always my gripe happens with the claims of historicity, as well as some grumbling over vocabulary.
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Post by Shannon on Oct 1, 2009 16:42:38 GMT -5
Thnaks, D and B. Those were some interesting replies and discussion. I did check out that link, Br, and it was pretty informative. I'm still getting hung up on the notion that the desert spring is a time of rebirth, when just a few short months later everything is hibernating or in hiding.
I get the feeling that just being bothered by it has made me more conscious of my environment and in effect, more aware of the changes. I pretty confident that that early moon in Sept that felt autumnal was a mark that fall had arrived- temps have dropped since and the air has felt different. Being more aware, I do notice a slight browning of the leaves, though nothing as a magnificent as the changing leaves of the north. It's subtle things and maybe that in itself makes some sort of seasonal point.
Can I see what I want in the seasons here? Can I associate Summer heat with anger and passion and see fall as a time of relief? I'll figure it out, I suppose.
I took a walk yesterday and felt the winds of change, and noticed a few dried leaves bowing about. So I'll anticipate change in my own life,and see fall as a start rather than as an ending as we near Winter. (Which I think is actually the Tradiional way, oddly. Samhain being the New Year?)
And about subtle changes and internalism- isn't there something connection between the desert and hermeticism?
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Post by Denethor on Oct 2, 2009 17:53:58 GMT -5
There'd be plenty of folklore-type support for viewing it along those lines, methinks. Think of the "sultry summer evenings" thing and lust (a different passion I suppose). "Sultry" would probably not describe your drier environment, but there's likely also a usable connection there with heat. You could also look at what people do in areas where there are wet/dry seasons rather than warm/cool ones, and see if anything there works for you. Much of Hermeticism originated in hot, dry environments, or in oases within those environments, most notably the fertile Nile valley within the Egyptian desert. One popular etymology for the words "alchemy" and "chemistry" is the Egyptian "Khem" meaning Black Land, the black fertile Nile delta as oppose to the Red Land of the surrounding desert (however, remember the difference between "popular" and "proven" ) - in this case, "al-Khemi" would mean "art of the Black Land", and hence to our words. The word "hermetic" itself likely derives from the name Hermes Trismegistus ("thrice-greatest Hermes"), a most-likely-fictional (legend level of folklore here) author who supposedly lived in that region. Connections are, of course, to the Grecian God Hermes and the Egyptian God Thoth. Later, Hermetic tradition was preserved in the Arab lands, also hot and dry. The Kabbalistic variants of same, quite popular among modern Hermeticists, of course originated with the Jews; while their lands of origin were not originally hot and dry, centuries of farming had made them that way by the time Hermeticism became popular among Europeans during medieval times. There's also the tradition of "retreating to the desert" to meditate or whatever that was popular among the Biblical societies that influenced Hermetics (this is also echoed in some of the "vision quest" traditions in other parts of the world; however, that's likely only because the idea of retreating from society to focus on the inner self is rather obvious). So yes, there's something of a connection between the desert and Hermeticism. In popular storytelling culture, the connection remains strong to this day, and for example is likely one of the reasons that Star Trek's Vulcan is/was a desert planet. Like many science fiction authors, the creators of that show were no strangers to folklore. Obi-Wan Kenobi's desert retreat in the earliest Star Wars film also fit this meme; however, Yoda's home later obviously did not. Also, the cool dry environment that sometimes results from building a heavy stone building or underground recess in a desert area is excellent for chemical experimentation, can't forget that.
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Post by Shannon on Oct 3, 2009 21:13:03 GMT -5
Interesting! Thanks, D. Somewhat along those lines, I've been thinking of turning to literature for inspiration. I've been meaning to read the Dune novels, for example, and while an unlikely, and fictional, source I think that desert themed culture could be helpful in understanding what sort of spirituality arises from an environment such as this. Or something...
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Post by Denethor on Oct 4, 2009 16:08:27 GMT -5
While fiction is ahistorical, and one can't claim "legitimacy" for a fiction-based custom or idea, one can't really knock it for inspiration. Art, after all, is also about life, and plenty of things you won't find in non-fiction books and practices are communicated by it. A summat embarrassing confession here: I spent much of my own early "spiritual" undertakings quite taken with Star Trek. I even still own a "Vulcan meditation robe", and I still meditate in it (oddly, though, I do so because it's quite practical when the weather turns cooler). Qira, if she shows up (hint, hint! ) can even verify that once, at a group ritual, lacking appropriate cooler-weather non-Oathbound ritual gear to wear - many things are in storage since I left Minnesota - I actually wore that. Points in its favor are comfort, the fact that a big billowy robe still fits me after I've gained forty pounds, and its appropriateness to general ritual atmosphere. It also goes with everything. How logical. Of course, it became obvious to me after a few years that what I really wanted was to become like all the hyper-rationalists in my family, who had labeled me the "crazy one" precisely because of my penchant for meditation and spirituality, and feel as though I was "good enough" - "logical enough"? - to be one of them. That realization shot down the Star Trek-based spirituality in a hurry, as did my mother's brain tumor causing me to see what someone with no emotions actually looks like (hint: not only do the Star Trek Vulcans still have 'em, they're positively obsessed with the topic), but it's still a good show. Herein lies one of the problems with using fiction. It can inspire, but there are limits. These limits are firmly drawn around the sphere generally termed "reality". For Dune-related materials, I'd draw the line at, say, smoking weed and calling it "spice" or such like. Some of the philosophical points about Dune are good, and I'll point out that cinnamon-scented incense is not only easily available, but no one will ask any odd questions if the house smells like it when they visit for the holidays. Also remember, using fiction for inspiration is all the more satisfying if you can identify the folklore motifs in the particular fiction you're choosing and relate it to something else you know or are interested in. Watch out though for any fictionalized accounts of real people - fictional Celts, Native Americans, Masons, and so on - these writer guys are notorious for getting that stuff wrong. Case in point: anything by Dan Brown. (A side hint about his latest: no, the Redskins were never in the World Series. I hope it is obvious why I nearly split a gut laughing when I heard about that one. Now I really want to read that book and see if he really says that in there, but I'll wait until it comes out in paperback or I'm at the front of the waiting list at the library, or Armageddon, whatever comes first ). If anyone "real" ever shows up in the work you find inspiring, do your homework! (Since I think I can safely assume that you in particular are in no danger of ever believing you are actually a vampire, extraterrestrial, Jedi Knight, or other fictional/folklore entity, I'll leave that one alone.) Heh...just noticing that some Elder God must've hit this post with the Hint Stick... ...and that clearly, the God in question was the Parenthesis God, with the Archangel of Italics in tow. Oh well, it's been a long week.
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Post by Shannon on Oct 4, 2009 21:13:47 GMT -5
Thanks again, D! I'll definitely keep my wits about me while reading. I'm mainly just hoping that some of the things attributed to the desert in a book I've been dying to read anyway will either ring true or inspire me to seek out more factual sources pertaining to the same. Much like reading in a poem that desert summer inspires ... Wealth or something, and then seeing if that strikes a cord. But honestly, I just don't think I know what I'm looking for, exactly. Ah, well...
I've been hearing more Brown criticism with this new release. Especially the warning that though the disclaimer states that people and events occured, one shouldn't assume that Brown's narrative did!
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Post by Denethor on Oct 9, 2009 11:43:08 GMT -5
From Dune in particular, you might like the "Litany Against Fear": It's got its good points and its bad points, but in any event it's food for thought. This and additional Dune quotes can be found at this Wiki. (What can I say, I'm a lazy typist. ) One thing to remember with Dune though is that if the first hundred or so pages frustrate you, keep reading. I found the book unpleasant at first, several times, and gave up. Then I saw the film (not very good, but pleasant eye candy - read the book first!) and as it skips through the story, I had no idea what was going on (that's why read the book first). In order to remedy this, I toughed it out through the book and this time enjoyed it, once I got through the frustrating parts. I've now read the whole series of the Frank Herbert ones (haven't yet tried the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson ones) except Chapterhouse, which I couldn't find for a bit and which is now gathering dust on my shelf behind a few cheesy things based on the Alien series and assorted alchemy texts. In short, if you find it slow at first just give it a good try. You of course have more motivation than I did - there weren't a whole lot of arresting insights from the desert that were applicable in Minneapolis. Have fun!
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