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Post by Shannon on Dec 2, 2009 8:47:52 GMT -5
Ben just found out last night during a huge crew meeting that his company lost a contract due to underbidding so there will be 26 lay-offs for a year and he's guy number 18. So he has, like, 12 days of work left. There's a slim chance he could retain a job, since they'll want to keep skilled workers, and some employees might opt for an early retirement (they'll get a special retirement plan if so), leaving more slots open. Even so, they'll be cutting down production and cutting down hours for those still on the job which will be less income. I'll have to go back to work, which is fine. If not, then we'll probably lose the house. We have some options, Ben is a journeyman and can hopefully find work doing something similar, when we first moved here he scored in the top percentile for USDA but didn't continue on with the interview process. That'll be a big pay cut too, but oh well. A coworker started his own business and then there's a company hiring in Tuscon and Flagstaff (the company whose contract we lost), which means Ben will be out of town while working. On the bright side, it's a new adventure. We don't necessarily have to stay in AZ, we could plan for a future wherever we would like to go. Some place green, with seasons...maybe Alaska. Ben's company has a plant in Germany so we'll apply there on a whim and see if that pans out- which would be flippin' awesome. (Except then he'd be working under his German citizenship.) They also have a UK plant, which, again, awesome. Maybe even find another DoD job in Germany... Anyway. They don't write books about people who have a ho-hum cozy life, right? It's the survivors that are interesting. And all this crap just makes you stronger- or so they say. Christmas this year is gonna suck, though.
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Post by blackrose on Dec 2, 2009 10:08:23 GMT -5
*hugs*
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Post by MsAriel on Dec 2, 2009 11:57:24 GMT -5
*hugs*
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Post by Denethor on Dec 2, 2009 17:14:22 GMT -5
*hugs* Come by here, pm, email (less reliable), or text any time. If you're into DC/Takoma Park the house 2 down from me is for sale... ...it is multi-family but maybe you could live in one unit and rent out the others? Aw geez, doesn't look like any unit in there could even remotely be big enough. Just fantasizing...don't mind me... Rooting for you and your family. As always.
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Post by Shannon on Dec 3, 2009 21:22:48 GMT -5
Thanks, Guys. :hugs: Well, things look a bit more positive as the lay-offs are being finalized. Ben was hired under the old contract, so he is one of few that will be getting a supplemental check each week that equals 80% of his pay. (And benefits) As long as he doesn't find new work. Sooooo... looks like he'll be the SAHD and I'll be the breadwinner. It should all work out as long as I can make up the reminaing 20% of his pay. The supplement is good for two years or until funds run out, so we could still be in a pickle later on. (Did I just say pickle?? I really AM 30. ) It'll be an interesting period of role-reversal, and though the going may get tough, it'll be a great experience for Ben and I, if not just to make us stronger, but to better understand and appreciate the other's role in our family. I am a little nervous about returning to the workforce...
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Post by Denethor on Dec 4, 2009 11:09:20 GMT -5
Role "reversal" or role evolution? (Alert: long post about my ever-fascinating weirdo family. ) My sister and my brother-in-law do it that way, and they're quite happy. When sis had her second child they looked at the cost of putting two children in daycare and discovered that it cost more than he could make at his job since his hours had been cut, but not as much as she made at her full-time job (which also had excellent benefits for family people, especially in the medical area). They didn't do it to "reverse" anything or to get "liberal points" or to make anybody into a "househusband" or "house-anything", but because it was simply the way that made the most economic sense. In their case, he was also somewhat better with the kids than she was - he comes from a big, loving family that modeled that, and my sis comes from, well, my family. We're dry intellectuals who don't do as well with the nurturing sort of stuff. Case in point: when my niece skinned her knee sis and I were right there with practical suggestions to reduce pain, avoid infection, and get active again as soon as she was ready. While she was staring at us a bit too confused even to cry, my b-i-l came along and gave her the hug and the "it's all right" that she wanted, but that sis and I were simply too clueless about little human beings to give her. Sooo... In any event though I think they manage it this way: (1) the husband realizes there are two kinds of "macho". One is "macho" that distinguishes men from women, and it's gotten less easy to do that in recent years, giving certain types of men a slight panic in that area. The other "macho", the really important one, distinguishes men from boys, i.e., adult men from children. While doing the nurturing parts of being a dad doesn't do much for the first one, being a successful father kicks ass at the second. It's not like the first one disappears - don't be surprised at new interests in things like hot rods, televised sports, hunting, or bodybuilding - but the second assessment really helps. (2) The two of them are a team when it comes to the "power" and the decision-making. They were when they first married, they were when they had two incomes, and they are now. (3) As a matter of economic necessity, neither of the parents spends much money on him/her self. Sis doesn't "make the money and give him an allowance" or anything infantilizing like that. There just isn't money for that in their family at present. They'll make small purchases like a coffee or a new pair of socks, but anything from a party dress for her office holiday get-together to new amps for the band he's in get a discussion. This isn't the greatest - like it seems all of the nation at present, they'd both like a little more spending cash - but it does have the side effect of negating the "money=purse strings=power" problem that can come in relationships where one is the main breadwinner. (4) When they're together with the kids, discipline is a shared responsibility. My sister (unsurprisingly) would like a stricter parenting model than my b-i-l, and yes of course sentences come out of her mouth that she and I both remember hearing years ago. But neither of them is the "disciplining parent". They never say, "you just wait until your X comes home!" Oh, and another factor, which your family shares: they do what they want and need, and there isn't some stupid religion in the way. Heh...you know what I'm getting at there I'm sure. Edited to add: and those are the most well-behaved, engaging, and social little kids you ever laid eyes on, and don't worry we will somehow get my niece off this wanting to be a real estate agent thing. Their place is not always neat, but it's no messier than most homes with children I've seen. Not the Cleavers. But the Cleavers are mostly dead, and this works. I wouldn't worry. (And you'll do fine at work. It isn't hard to get into the swing of that - I've come to new jobs after a long time unemployed - after five days you'll wonder what you were worried about. If it's a great job, Ben will have his hands full if he wants you to quit when times get easier!). I'll end this rapidly expanding post (why does that always happen?) with saying I'm really glad, and relieved for you, that Ben will be getting those 80% checks. Not that you couldn't have done it, but it makes it a lot less an immediate emergency. Thank gawdz! And keep us posted.
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Post by E on Dec 4, 2009 17:22:51 GMT -5
Holy Shit!
I'm local so let us know if you need us.
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Post by Shannon on Dec 4, 2009 22:56:20 GMT -5
Role "reversal" or role evolution? (Alert: long post about my ever-fascinating weirdo family. ) Role reversal. Role evolution implies that we are transcending the regulations and techniques of one way of life for a more successful and permanent one for the survival and betterment of our existence. Too much implication, I say. It would be a reversal even if he had previously been the Sahd, and I, the WorkerBee. The only reason he isn't at home is because he has the ability to make more money. We've already agreed that if I follow up on my education and get into a profession that brings home more income, then he will definitely be a househusband. It's funny (or not so much so), that as a SaHM, I am definitely pro-feminist. It's probably from experience in a more "traditional" lifestyle, though I wouldn't say my lifestyle is one of oppression, servitude, or obedience. Ben is very much aware of how I feel women should be treated, admired, and appreciated. Or, for that matter, how men should be treated. Like you, I have family members that have reversed the traditional roles of man and woman, and I see just as clearly how men can be mistreated, under-appreciated, and emasculated by a dominating and controlling partner. No one spouse should feel they have any more power or superiority over the other just because they bring home the bacon. I also appreciate the other side of feminism, in which a woman can respect and admire her partner for his masculine qualities, not abuse him by shoving him into the unequal, neglected, and mistreated role women once held. I can be a woman while still allowing him to be a man. I don't need to demean him or control him to feel like I have established myself as a strong woman. I've found that it's a blurry line for many people. I can respect my husband without being a pushover. I will ask his opinion on most things before I make a final decision- as he will with me. And I will respect his feelings, even if I disagree. But it's amazing how many take that the wrong way, that if I were an empowered woman, I would say to hell with his feelings and thoughts and do as I wanted. It's a partnership, not a wrestling match. We screw up and hurt each other, or become selfish and blinded, but we also have the will and desire to right those wrongs, improve our relationship, and make it work. Just because I stay at home and often seek my husband's opinion, doesn't mean that I'm a miserable doormat. (And, it also allows me an out when I really don't want to do something. ) Not that we are a perfect, open-minded, new-era couple. When Ben said that he should sit at the head of the table, and I at his side, he caught hell. Just as I heard how sexist I was when, while he was making preparations for Thanksgiving dinner, I asked if that should be my job. Basically, we're not perfect, but we at least have the ideals. But, as someone who is currently in this role and he in that, it'll be fun to explore the other side. Maybe he'll better appreciate my pleas for help when he first comes home, and I'll better appreciate his need to decompress first after a long day. It's just an actual opportunity to not only intellectually understand the other side, but to actual have lived in each other's shoes for awhile. I think it's a great opportunity for us, and I'm actually kind of thankful we're getting a chance to do this. How many couples get to do this instead of staying in their rut, rehashing the same arguments and finally finding change by leaving that which seems unresolvable? Most stay in their 'role' if only because it's comfortable or they can't afford to switch until they just. can't. take it.. (Not that we can afford it either, but ...) And I'm not saying we are at that point, but that it seems like a rare opportunity and a fun journey. I'm done. Though I do have a TON of thoughts on sexism. Like, why is it ok for women to explore and experiment with masculine things, yet men panic when you try to talk to them about Barbies during Christmas. (Ben's brother.) Because there's still some undesirable qualities, weak qualities, in femininity? Give me a break. ("Stop yelling at me, Shannon! I don't know what I think! I'm sorry!" And hey, women, why can't women BE women, and celebrate their sexuality without offending you and your screwed-up feminist ideals? Is there still something so wrong and distasteful about the female body, and the fact that yes, men like it? Oh, the horrors! (Disclaimer: This does not include those women who only find self-worth in their own objectification, nor does it condone or glorify the prostitution trade.) Really, I could go on and on. Eta: Oops! Thanks, E.
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Post by Denethor on Dec 5, 2009 14:09:16 GMT -5
But you are doing that, whichever way you go. You're making the decision that is best for you and your family in the situation in which you find yourselves, just like my sister's family. It isn't about which way you go, it's about making the choice that is better for you at this time, and that will be different choices at different times. In short, I meant the raw change meaning of evolution - adapting to a situation or environment, making changes that are better in that environment (and may not be in another, requiring further evolution) - not in the New Age (sorry, can't think of another term) sense where "evolved" is some kind of shorthand for "better in all circumstances". The only issue I'd have with your above statement is "permanent" - evolution being an ongoing process, none of the specific changes are permanent. Things might change "back" or to a completely new option at any time. (And as I'm sure you've heard, roles, species, and other general categories evolve - people or other individual animals don't, they adapt instead - but that's not even an issue you brought up, so I'll just make that as a side statement). Oh gawdz you hit a big nail on the head there! People will raise a fuss when women are denied entry into things previously marked "men's" - justifiably, as many of those things are quite desirable activities and qualities - but it is still considered not so important when men refuse activities marked "women's", despite those things also being desirable. It isn't just about equal housework, though that's important - it's also about teaching boys as well as girls how to take care of themselves. For instance, to maintain a "masculine" image may men remain lousy cooks. [There was a story in here about Mountain Men who can't sew on buttons, but it isn't important. - Den] Also to clarify, I realize this is a major threadjack and if you don't want to discuss it that's ok. To me it looks like we're in basic agreement on this issue anyway. My initial point, which is what I wanted to buttress, is that you and your family are resourceful and resilient and will thrive one way or another no matter what. Rooting for you guys whatever you do! And best of luck.
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Post by E on Dec 5, 2009 16:50:20 GMT -5
Hugs, I miss you!
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Post by Shannon on Dec 5, 2009 21:16:32 GMT -5
I messed up big and the batt is going to die! Someone fix it! (See D's post.)
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Post by Denethor on Dec 5, 2009 22:26:34 GMT -5
This is an attempt to set up what I believe was Shannon's intended post. I've copied all of Shannon's text here, so, confident that nothing will be lost I'll go do mine. I'll see your explanation and....fold. I can see where you're going with that. I reacted to the word evolution because I (obviously) do deal alot with misperceptions about my marriage, and my role in it. What's freaking HILARIOUS (haha, vomit), is that when MEN decide to stay home and care for the kids and tend the house they are lauded for their open-mindedness, for their liberal views, for their sacrifice and devotion. Whereas women are mocked, sneered at, and dismissed. What woman would be a housewife if she could actually DO something? Men? Well, obviously they could be succesful but they chose an honorable and applauded path. I'm so sick and tired of the ultimate internet insult being, "This poster is just a fat, dumb, housewife anyway." (Not directed at me.) Just last night we were doing our lists to Santa and Luke asked for an Easy Bake Oven. (Not by name, he wanted a kids oven.) I told Ben, and he balked. Which is ironic, because Ben loves to cook, and has dealt with insults concerning this. And apparently his issue isn't so much with the cooking aspect, but the fact that the Easy Bake Ovens are pink. It seems to me that if we deny Luke the oven because it's feminine, then that's going to create so many more issues than it being pink. And he could be a genius in the kitchen and we could be stunting that. And if he's that freaked out, we can spray paint the damn oven blue. I'm not worried about being jacked. Besides, there's, like, three of us on the board. I'm sure we can all keep up without strict order. ;D Could we start a feminism thread? Probably, and I'll probably have alot to say. Watched a Dave LaChapelle special a few months ago and have been chewing on that for awhile.... Anyhow, OT news. With the supplement, it looks like Ben will actually be doing better than those continuing on at work. Hours and lines have been cut so they'll be working less, and making less. The gut feeling is that it's not going to last a year, that the new company is somehow going to mess up big and the contract will go back to us. Lets hope! (Hope that the other workers are just asses that mess up, not good people who find themselves in our shoes. ) I'm starting to put in my apps, and I'll let you know what's what. ----- Is the above correct? I think I know what happened. My guess is based on the thing I have come ---><---this close to doing myself, and may have once or twice without realizing it. It's a weakness of Proboard's presentation of post editing options. I don't think there's much we can do about it. But all's well.
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Post by Denethor on Dec 5, 2009 23:05:32 GMT -5
Now for a regular reply. Oh man good points galore. You are absolutely correct. Even between my Dad and his wife, who are both retired and spend their time more or less as they please, Dad gets lauded by others for just doing the dishes, whereas if there's a speck of dust in the house it is "Wifey" who is looked at askance. In point of fact they tend to do the old college housemate thing where the person who doesn't cook is the one to have to clean up. Household chores are given to the person who finds the given chore less odious - wife gets laundry, Dad gets bathrooms, &c. Over and over, Dad is seen by outsiders as "making a great sacrifice", but the home is still her "responsibility" and she's the one who gets blamed when things aren't perfectly shipshape. The second major point - about how women are viewed on the Internet - also very good, as the derision one sees for terms like "mommy blogger" shows. "Fat dumb housewife": only one of those things has anything to do with how good one's contributions are going to be, it matters not a whit if you're a housewife, or if you're fat. Why those things are ultimate insults I have no idea, though I obviously have suspicions. Incidentally, a number of the feminist-y blogs I visit (they tend toward the liberal, and I don't know how you feel about that, but if you're interested I'd be glad to offer some links) also report being insulted for being "fat ugly feminists"; there's that word again, "fat". What does that have to do with anything? In any event, the pattern I see here is good old "just a woman"; all of these things are code for discounting an opinion because its bearer happens to be a woman. I guess the fact that people who want to say this have to talk in "code" is an improvement; at least they realize on some level that ideas should be evaluated on their own merits, and not on what is essentially an ad hominem attack. Thus they have the decency to be embarrassed enough to talk in code, like racists and anti-Semites. But there is still clearly a long way to go. Damn, what is it with pink? I know quite well that were I to wear or own the wrong pink item (pale pink button down shirt under blazer = ok but you look like a real estate agent, pale pink phone = pussy city) I'd have a damn hard time convincing people that my gender identity was in any way masculine. Meanwhile, my male to female friend works it the other way, seeking pink and purple everything. If there were a purple atomic reactor on the market she'd want one. All of this fuss over what is basically a set of wavelengths of light. Completely arbitrary. In some ways though, that's the reality we live in. If your son wants a kids' oven, it would sure be nice if there were a "gender neutral" one available. (So he could grow up to be a kick-ass cook and a kick-ass organic chemist). But there is a strong tendency these days to take something that was originally neutral and gender it for girls by producing it in pink. If you see something that is available only in pink, it is because the Marketing Gods don't want you to buy one for your little boy. It didn't used to be that way. Even the baby blanket thing was essentially a '40s invention. Of course, my tendency is to say screw the Marketing Gods, if it's something important. On the other hand, when it's not the Marketing Gods but the feelings of a member of your family, that matters a bit more. Erm...why not? (As in, why are you asking?..?? ) Having not seen the special, my contributions on that would be limited, but for myself I define a feminist as someone who wants the best for women (meaning equal rights), which means, some of them are going to be men too unless men are absolute monsters. And that hasn't been my observation. If you do and this post would fit better in it than here, go ahead and move this post with my blessing.
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Post by Shannon on Dec 7, 2009 1:23:06 GMT -5
That was bad... Thanks!
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Post by Shannon on Jan 10, 2010 12:55:20 GMT -5
So, the company that underbid and 'stole' the contract is doing horribly. Ben's company is actually working with the client to get the work done that the other company can't handle. There's rumblings that they'll get the contract back, that the plant in CA. is doing badly and that hey might pick up that business, and that they might be getting business from a huge client in Texas. For now, the lay-off is still in effect, as are the reduced operation hours, but Ben DID get a call this weekend to return to work for one of the reduced shifts. Yay! At least it's an income. Which is good, because I haven't gotten any bites for any decent work. This job market is freaking horrible. Here's hoping everything comes together and Ben's back at work full-time.
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